Unfortunately I need to work out how to protect my parents' credit card from being used by my sister.

She lives in the house and therefore it is pretty much impossible for them to have numbers hidden from her.
The transactions are always done without the card - she just has the numbers.
A while ago I asked the bank if they could change the settings so that the cards can only be used when card is present but the staff member I spoke to said this wasn't possible. I would have thought it would be...

I need to find a solution and am hoping there is one.

Facts are;
1. Mum and Dad need a credit card
2. It is too difficult for people their age to keep the card numbers permanently hidden from someone living in their house although they can ensure that she doesn't take their card.


Can anyone offer any suggestions or know of bank policies that could help this situation?

I would ask the bank to lower the limit to something that actually reflects their day to day spend if its not already.

I know this sounds very agressive, but have you considered reporting the unauthorised spend to the bank and let that process take its course.

Can they not just spend by eft pos?

Difficult situation - good luck.

Age Concern is sure to be able to give you an answer to your dilemma as they have probably come across this sort of situation multiple times as it is a form of elder abuse. You can ring them on 09-820-0184. Website [www.ageconcernauckland.org.nz]
Regards,
Dawn.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2016 03:44AM by Dawn.

We had this exact problem with my stepdaughter putting things on her father's credit card, which she had been given access to for emergencies only. The banks are not interested as long as someone pays the balance every month, and you also have to careful what you tell the bank as it is a breach of the terms and conditions to give your password to anyone else. We cancelled that card.

We set up a new card with a low limit, but that wasn't much help because the bank allowed it to go wildly over the limit then demanded instant payment of the total owing. We cancelled it and now she has no access at all.

The first thing your parents should do is change the PIN or password so your sister can't use it at all. Then to be on the safe side open a new account with a new number and password and cancel the old one.

It is indeed a horrible situation and your parents' wellbeing must come first. A family member with mental health problems, especially those that result in poor impulse control, can be a vortex for money as well as time and love.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2016 08:54AM by TPANDAV.

Thanks for all of your very thoughtful responses.

I don't understand how she can actually use the card as she only has the card number, expiry and 3 digit security number.
She doesn't have the pin.
How can she be able to use the card with that limited information?

It is indeed a very stressful situation. Unfortunately she is likely to have something like a grandiose disorder whereby she thinks that she is entitled to whatever she likes really. The label makes little difference, it is the impact on the family - and in particular my parents - that is awful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2016 04:46AM by helen.

I assumed the issue was online shopping - all you need is number, name, exp date and the 3 digit security code. If she has access to the card, then she is able to use it. Also a lot of sites allow you to store the information meaning you dont need the card each time.

If she must live with them, then I would change tack and move to eftpos.

As Plates said, she doesn't need the PIN for online shopping. Our daughter was buying liquor, cigarettes and food from an on-line grocery store that delivered within the hour, clothes, shoes, cosmetics, and was also on-line gambling, which was the last straw.

When your parents get a new credit card you could ask the bank not to make it Paywave compatible. I'm not sure if that is possible, but Paywave is totally insecure.

I agree with Plates. Living in a rural area I sometimes order and pay for items with my credit card over the phone. You don't use a PIN number for that so when someone steals a credit card they don't need a pin number to use it via telephone.

ASB has a card-control app which allows 'on' 'off' management of a card. [www.asb.co.nz] Don't know but it may be a bit much for elderly people to understand how to use? Other banks may have this type of system as well. Just a thought.
Regards,
Dawn.

Oh no, I hate to hear of those things. To me it represents elderly abuse, it doesn't have to be physical.

Is there a Grey Power branch in their region that you could contact? I'm sure if anyone would know the best way to deal with it they could. I note Dawn has mentioned Age Concern. Please contact them.

I know family members don't like to do things like this but it is your parents who are the victims and not your sister. A legal letter to your sister pointing out a possible unpleasant outcome may help.

Get a new card, hide it from her, she might remember the number but the security number would be different I would imagine... ?

OR get her a Debit card thats her own, when her money is gone, its gone. I use a debit card - its fantastic, all the same facilities as a credit card but if I dont have the money, I cant buy. Its a good lesson in finances.

Vanessa

What I can't quite understand is how she can go into stores (which she did) and purchase without the card being present and without knowing the pin number...
This isn't online shopping, it is her actually going shopping.
She is on a benefit and has no money to speak of but seems to think she is entitled to spend mum and dads.
Mental health issues are so difficult to deal with and with this one there is unfortunately nothing that drugs will fix.

Thankfully I am home at present so can go to the bank with mum and dad and try and work out a safe option for them.
I think a debit card will be it.

The next big thing is to try and work out how she could possibly not live with them.

Unfortunately Marnie a legal letter will do nothing, I have already told her I would go to the Police to which I received a verbal tirade that involved lots of words starting with F and being told exactly what she thought of me, them and everyone else in the immediate vicinity. For the safety of everyone I need to try and handle this without inciting her as who knows what she is capable of.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2016 08:40AM by helen.

Helen - are you sure. If you go shopping, you need a credit card and pin, and even paywave you still need to have a card.

Apple pay contactless payments with ANZ - does she have an iphone or iwatch? This is all I can think of.

I am guessing she is known to mental health - in any case you should notify them of whats happening.

The bank is Westpac and yes she does have an iPhone.

My parents live in Hokitika and she has just been in Christchurch using their credit card (without the card) for accommodation and shopping...

I will phone the card company tomorrow and talk through it with them.
Thankfully I am here so can get mum and dad to give permission for me to talk through their options with the bank.
She definitely didn't take their card as they use it most days at the supermarket.

She actually isn't known to mental health - just diagnosed without seeing from a psychiatrist friend of mine.
I am not sure what mental health could do as she has a complex personality disorder which won't be drug treatable and there is no way she would ever cooperate with being assessed. I have mentioned it at times.
She does take anti anxiety meds but that is it I think.

You do wonder what the future holds as she is incapable of employment and no one wants to subsidise her level of spending for very long at all.

There are many times when non charitable or PC thoughts flood our minds - with mum being the exception I think.

Hi there,

She is stealing from your parents. I would be asking the police to make her a friendly phone call.
Then call Grey Power or someone in charge of senior care in your area to ask advice on what to do.

Apart from changing Credit cards numbers and hiding the cards, im sorry I cant suggest much more.


Zeetra

So difficult to deal with, we see this at work an awful lot, in fact we often wonder out loud where have all the "normal people" gone?

I'd cancel all cards, and set them up with a new credit card which can be turned on and off from a phone. Leave it switched off, and if your parents need to use it then perhaps they can call you to have it turned on for a set period of time? This does mean an awful lot of work for you though. I strongly suspect she has managed to use an app to access their card using her phone in shops.

I'd also ask the bank to send her a letter outlining the possible consequences of illegal use, and I'd go to the police and ask them to visit her and "give her a fright".

Living alone is an issue, without a diagnosis it is impossible to actually access support, and if she won't consent to diagnosis then you are stuck. It sounds like a "tough love" approach wouldn't be acceptable to your Mum, but I'd think that might be the only way.

Good luck.

If online purchasing is a problem, a debit card won't fix that. The on/off option sounds good though.

I feel your pain, Helen. We had a similar issue for 3y before my husband's parents died. A distant cousin of my husband's (50yo) moved in with my in laws and started spending, selling things from inside their house and then filling an insurance claim that they were stolen, and crashed their car while DUI. He was mentally unstable, had a long criminal record and was extremely manipulative. In the end, he turned them against my husband, who was waging a legal battle to get him out of the house. Quite hard when you live in another country (they were in the US) and the parents had been convinced that it was my husband doing the stealing. It cost us a phenomenal amount in legal fees and trips over there, and eventually got him thrown out after my mother in law died and my husband wad granted legal guardianship of his dad. Heartbreaking stuff as his mum died not having spoken to my husband, her only child, in a year.. when previously their relationship had been quite acceptable. A year on from his father's death we're still trying to sort our life insurance that had been changed into the cousin's name, sigh.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2016 08:36PM by Jenna.

A few more thoughts based on my two years of exposure to a stepdaughter with Borderline Personality Disorder, Dependent Personality Disorder, ADD and depression.

An exact diagnosis doesn't help, it's the behaviour that matters.

You can't force an adult to undergo psychiatric or psychological counselling, even if it is available. Private counselling costs a fortune. Our child only agreed to counselling when she was arrested on hundreds of criminal charges.

Personality disorders are an extremely difficult area of mental health, and visits from the police or letters from lawyers are unlikely to have any effect as the person does not see themselves as being subject to the conventions of society and usually does not even realise that there are "acceptable" ways of behaving.

The most important thing Helen is to put in place measures that protect your parents from the stealing and grandstanding. This is not easy, and it may not be easy to convince them to be so hard-line, but it is vital. We have lost around $150,000 in two years and we are still paying a weekly allowance to keep her in rehab, I can hardly bear to think about it. The only benefit we have seen from all that money is that she is not in jail and not dead.

Helen, would your parents do some reading about personality disorders? The Out of the Fog website is clearly written and has a wealth of information.

There will be no natural end to the problem. Personality disorders do not fade away, the best you can hope for is that some from of therapy might reduce the toxic behaviour.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2016 03:27AM by TPANDAV.

My first thoughts were that no-one should be able to go shopping in person with only a card number and pin no. ie without the actual card and any retailer accepting payment in this way would be in breach of their merchant agreement in which case the bank would be under an obligation to reimburse the cardholder.

I am not familiar with the contactless/Iphone arrangement - Plates can you please elaborate. If it means that anyone can run around spending other people's money then it's technology gone mad and I think we should all be very afraid.

Yes agree with others that a debit card with a new pin no.and no Paywave capability would be a good option for your parents, Helen. That way at least they have some measure of control. Also if they have a pin number that they can remember without having to write it down it would be helpful. Even if they don't remember the actual number, there could be a simple prompt which will enable them to recall it. For example my late mother's pin no. was made up of the day and month of her eldest grandchild's birthday 2303. My mother-in-law knows the' shape' of her pin number ie. which keys to press on the pinpad but couldn't tell you the actual number.

If unauthorised use of the new card continues than you have a stronger case with the bank if you can prove that the pin number was not written anywhere.

I do feel sorry for your parents, Helen and others who have to deal with the fallout of this kind of behaviour in families. I can only hope that things are not made worse for your parents once your sister's access to funds is cut off.

All the best.

Regards,

Barbara Anne



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2016 03:25AM by Barbara Anne.

Thanks again for all of your very helpful advice.
Tpandav I will check out that website thank you, my parents are too old to be dealing with this. Dad is 82 and it is so unfortunate that they have this to cope with.
I have switched their cards to just eft pos for now. New credit cards have been ordered and they will keep them carefully hidden and only bring them out if there is a real necessity for them to use credit as opposed to eft pos. Obviously they won't be in their wallets. I have power of attorney so am able to be a signature on their bank accounts and can also keep an eye on things with online banking.
My sister is 51 and refuses to admit she has any sort of problem at all, there is no way I could talk her into therapy and I doubt there would be anything available in Hokitika being such a small town.
I tried to talk to her this morning but she simply put her fingers in her ears. Literally!
After a huge blow up over the past few days and me telling her I was going to the police etc... she then came home this afternoon full of life with shopping bags filled with yet more "stuff" to gift for Christmas.
Apparently this is all my problem and she has learnt not to hold grudges so I just need to get over it.
I do realise that her personality disorder means she just doesn't comprehend any of this but it isn't an excuse and nor is it acceptable.
I have talked to the police and they said that if I brought mum and dad in to fill in the forms that they could issue her with a warning. Mum seemed reluctant to do this - small town and all of that so I haven't pushed for that just yet.
This sort of behaviour is very trying and there are many times when I think that if she did end up in jail then at least mum and dad could have some peace.

I find her ability to spend unusual and am not satisfied with the banks response really. She went to Red Current, Ballantynes, a motel etc... and just gave them the card number and expiry dates etc... and they treated it as you would with an online transaction.
Surely this is ridiculous and just opens up mass opportunities for fraud.
The bank were not at all helpful with this aspect.

Obviously it is isn't just the spending. Last night when mum turned the television off during dinner she shrieked at her to turn it on as "We are not F*****g Brethens."
If it wasn't so awful it would almost be laughable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2016 05:20AM by helen.

Sounds OK. It sounds like its going to be left for you to do, but the police need to be involved because even if you eliminate this spending thing, something else will take its place. For you, your parents and your sisters sake somehow she needs to get in the system especially if she is going to continue to live with them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2016 05:28AM by Plates.

Helen, if the bank aren't coming to the party, and she can't just rock up to a department store/motel without a physical card - I would actually take this further with the Banking Ombudsman!! And ask Westpac for the contact details for the Ombudsman, and let them know you intend taking this further

I am in communication with my bank regarding this scenario.

I will post my findings tomorrow.

Regards,

Barbara Anne

I agree there is most definitely something wrong if you can make a purchase in a store without a physical card. I suspect it is probably a store issue rather than a bank issue as stores can enter card details manually when they don't swipe correctly - the bank would have no idea if this was the case or if the store was processing the transaction without the card. That is a massive security concern if it is a widespread practice. Has she been doing this outside Hokitika? Or is it perhaps done in a smaller town because everyone knows everyone? In which case, you could make that work in your favour by going around the main shops and if she is known to people, discussing the situation with them.

Yes I to are shocked that you can buy things with just the card number and details via a shop. The shops should not allow it, I can see that in a small town how they might if every one knows everyone kinda thing but I would suspect its illegal.

I found this on Wikipedia

A card not present transaction (CNP, MO/TO, Mail Order / Telephone Order, MOTOEC) is a payment card transaction made where the cardholder does not or cannot physically present the card for a merchant's visual examination at the time that an order is given and payment effected, such as for mail-order transactions by mail or fax, or over the telephone or Internet.

Card not present transactions are a major route for credit card fraud, because it is difficult for a merchant to verify that the actual cardholder is indeed authorizing a purchase.

If a fraudulent CNP transaction is reported, the acquiring bank hosting the merchant account that received the money from the fraudulent transaction must make restitution; whereas with a swiped (card present) transaction, the issuer of the card is liable for restitution.[1] Because of the greater risk, some card issuers charge a greater transaction fee to merchants who routinely handle card not present transactions.

The card security code[2][3] system has been set up to reduce the incidence of credit card fraud arising from CNP.

I feel for you Helen and your family and everyone else out there dealing with this kind of stuff. As its been said before, no easy fix.

I had experience with an ex who had drinking and behavioural issues. We went to CADS, a government organisation for some help. I dont think he got anything out of it, he thought it was only for losers, not people like him HOWEVER I went to a support group and found that was really informative.

I met all sorts of people dealing with partners, and children who add addiction issues resulting in a variety of unsavoury behaviours.

I met one lovely mum and dad dealing with a twin daughter who was a handful and that was putting it lightly. They spent each day on edge expecting visits form the police, and really feared for her life and their safety. They eventually got her into Odessy House Auckland but I suspect they will be dealing with this all their lives. You could see and hear the strain it placed on their family - it was heart breaking.

I guess my point is, in all this, look after yourself, you mum and dad and family and if theres any support, even just talking with people in the same boat, take it.

Take care
Vanessa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2016 08:52PM by Vanessa45.

Here is what I have established so far:

1. You cannot make a purchase at a retail outlet using a card number and pin no. only - the card must be present. A retailer accepting a card in that manner is in breach of their merchant agreement and the cardholder has recourse through the bank (as I indicated in an earlier post).

2. Contactless iPhone technology allows the details of a PayWave compatible card to be loaded onto an iPhone, in which case it is a matter of tapping the phone on the terminal, as if it were the card, for purchases up to $80. For larger purchases the pin.no must be keyed onto the pinpad, as in the case of the card, to complete the transaction.

3. Loading the details of a card onto an iPhone is apparently not as straightforward as it sounds - there is quite a rigorous screening process which is designed to provide security to the cardholder. Apart from the obvious pin. no.. other questions relate to credit limit, average card use, what you generally use the card for and other personal information. which supposedly only the cardholder him/herself would know. However in this case, the unauthorised user, by virtue of her living arrangements, is privy to all that information and has apparently been able to load the details on her own phone.

4.Not all merchants accept contactless iPhone payments - I guess terminals have to be compatible - so you have to know which retailers accept it..

5. As the merchants appear not to be at fault in this case (unless it can be proven that they accepted the card number and pin. no from your sister without the card being present), it is a matter for the police and when a police report is lodged, the bank will have to sit up and take notice, whether they like it or not and work with the cardholder to minimise future risk. If it were me, and even if no breach of merchant agreement can be proven, I would be pressing for some sort of compensation from the bank, even an ex-gratia, good faith payment.

So as I said in an earlier post, your parents need a debit card with no Paywave capability and a pin.no that is not written anywhere. That way, your sister can't load the card details onto her i-Phone, or even make Paywave purchases under $80 using the card. She would be limited to on-line shopping, using the card no and the three digit security code and if she was silly enough to try that then there would be a trail to follow so unauthorised use would be easily proven.

Hope this helps - do let us know what transpires.

Regards,

Barbara Anne



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2016 11:25AM by Barbara Anne.

Great detective work Barbara Anne, informative and interesting.
I hope you get a solution Helen.

Happy Christmas everyone, relaxing I hope.
Vanessa